134: The Vision So Far - Too Much Swivel and Coffee Mug Collisions

(upbeat music) - Welcome to In the News for February 9th, 2024.

I am Brett Burney from AppsinLaw.com. - And this is Jeff Richardson from iPhoneJD.

An early good morning to you, Brett. - Yes, yes, yes.

I'm on the road again, doing a little bit of travel.

You can probably hear a little bit sounds different.

Need to have my equipment.

Speaking of equipment, I am so excited to hear like how the last week has been with you on the Vision Pro.

But first, let's make sure we have coffee ready, right?

(laughing) Let's do a little follow up.

You had made a tip of the week.

I forget if it was maybe two weeks ago or something like that.

The Starbucks app, because it now has the live activities feature. - Oh, yes. - Which is really cool. - Yeah. - Because you can order using the app, but you can actually follow along right there on your iPhone screen, and you can see exactly when your coffee is ready.

Now, I'm not a huge Starbucks person.

I'm fine with Starbucks.

But it just so happens that ever since you posted that, Brett, I have just had reasons to use Starbucks like many occasions.

Including one time that I was waiting for my daughter, and I was just sitting, I had ordered something on my phone, but I was sitting there in the actual Starbucks so I could hear them call my name when my order is ready and see the app.

Here's my experience.

I mean, this has only been across three or, you know, a couple anecdotal examples.

But when your order is ready in the real world, it actually takes about two or three minutes, maybe even four, when your iPhone says your order is ready.

So I don't know what it is that the person working at Starbucks does that from when they put your coffee cup down to when they go press some button to indicate that it's ready.

So I've noticed that I guess at a couple different Starbuckses in New Orleans, both when I walked over to pick something up and also when I was just sitting there so I could literally see when it came out.

And so my advice is this, that if you're using the app, even if your app says your order's not ready yet, it actually might be there.

But on the other hand, if the app says your order is ready, well, then it's definitely ready, and it's probably been ready for about two or three minutes.

So if you're the sort of person that, you know, I know when I used to live in New York City, that I was constantly walking around and going to stuff, you know, if you have this fast-paced life and you're trying to be very precise, just keep that in mind.

The Starbucks app, I love that they added live activities.

It's great when it tells you that your order is ready.

It is definitely ready.

But even if it doesn't quite say it's ready yet, it might be there.

So that's a quick little follow-up for- - Yeah, I've noticed that too, 'cause actually last week I was in New York for exactly that, where there was like three Starbuckses on every corner.

And it's like, you know, I want something, and before I walk out of the hotel room, 'cause I'm gonna walk by this corner of Starbucks, and I wanna have it.

I figured there was probably gonna be some discontinuance, and sometimes it matters how busy the store is, sometimes like that.

But I remember there's three different stages, right?

It's like you place the order, and then the next stage, theoretically, is when the barista actually picks the receipt up, or like the little printed thing, right?

And they put it, they slap it on the cup, and then they're making it.

But yeah, I've seen some discrepancies there between, you know, this is very important stuff, Jeff.

I'm glad that we are- - It is, it is. - We are helping our people understand this.

It's like when they set it down, and you know, it is, even if you're there, at least you know you're in the store, so that you can expect that they should call your name fairly soon. - It's still useful for you. - And you know. (laughs) Okay, you're welcome, everyone.

I'm glad that we were able to cover up on that.

Okay, but now, now, please, let's hear, you had great links in this post of, in the news.

And of course, so many people now have had their hands on the Apple Vision Pro, maybe a little bit more than a week, you know, for some journalists and stuff.

But for us regular folks, well, for you regular folk, Jeff, you've had it now for a whole week.

And there's some great stories that you linked to today.

But what are your thoughts now, after a whole week of being able to use the Vision Pro? - So much to say, so much to say.

And let me begin by saying that I do not intend to turn this podcast into the Vision Pro podcast. - Oh, yes, right. - Because I realize that only a small percentage of people are buying one.

Having said that, when I talk about what has been in the news of Apple mobile projects, products rather, I mean, all the news is Vision Pro.

There's a little extra stuff, and we're gonna talk about that today, but it's the big product.

And I'm sure at some point soon, Apple will come out with a new iPad and eventually a new iPhone, we'll be talking about that.

But for now, this is the hot area.

And it's interesting because so much of the Vision Pro, and I've seen some people say this, so many technologies in Vision Pro, when you look at them, you're like, oh, wait a minute, now I understand why Apple has been doing this with the iPhone or this on the Mac.

Just for example, the continuity feature that if you have your Mac and your iPad next to each other and a cursor can move from one to the other, that's incredibly useful for a Mac and an iPad, and that's useful enough, but that feature just works seamlessly with the Vision Pro.

And you have to think that for the past, I mean, they say they've been working in the Vision Pro for a decade, that for the past, I don't know how many years, as Apple has been developing features that we have seen on the iPhone, on the iPad, on the Mac, even on the Apple Watch, you know that people at Apple have been thinking, oh, wait a minute, this is gonna work, or maybe even the primary, maybe it even started for the Vision Pro, and then it spilled over.

So that's just really interesting.

So I do think the Vision Pro is an interesting topic, no matter what you're using, but of course, it's also interesting if you're thinking about getting one, whether it be now or what I think a lot of people are gonna do.

I mean, I didn't get the first iPhone.

I waited until the second iPhone came out before I got it.

I think a lot of people are paying attention to it now, and maybe when the second model comes out, that'll be hopefully cheaper or something like that, a year or two in the future.

So anyway, that's just my little precursor statement to the Vision Pro.

So having said that, it's been really fascinating seeing so many people that do have it, 'cause many, many people do, and have the reviews.

I posted my review on Monday of this week, and I purposefully did something I've never done before, which is I called it initial review.

I mean, I've reviewed hundreds of products on iPhoneJD, and I'd never before called something an initial review, and I felt like it was a cop-out, but I was like, "You know, there's just so much here I don't understand yet."

And one of the things that I've been happy to see is so many other reviewers have done the same thing.

They've just sort of pointed out that, you know, these are just some early thoughts, everything else.

So I'm glad I'm not alone in just being overwhelmed by how different of a product this is, and, you know, everything else.

You were talking, I think you had mentioned before the Ben Thompson article on Chutechary. - Yes. - Ben Thompson is a very, great writer, he really thinks hard about things.

His articles tend to be long.

I always enjoy reading his- - Very deep and intellectual. - Very deep, yeah. - Right. (laughs) - A lot of his articles are behind a paywall that you have to subscribe to it, but some of them, like the one that you're showing right now, anybody can read.

And he has an interesting analogy.

He starts off by showing how he used to in the early, maybe it was the 2000s, use one of these Rio devices as an MP3 player. - Diamond Rio, that's right. - And he thought it was, and I had one of those too way back when, he thought it was the best thing ever until he finally tried an iPod and he's like, "Oh my God, this is just, you know, it changed everything."

And, you know, is the Vision Pro the same thing?

There are definitely some areas in which the Vision Pro is really transformative.

I mean, especially when it comes to the immersive entertainment stuff.

I was watching some of that this week.

You know, Apple doesn't have many of these immersive videos, but the ones that they have, when you watch them, and this is something that everywhere you look, it's not just like a 16 by nine movie theater screen.

It's everywhere you look up and down and all around, you see things all around you and the cameras are just so perfect.

It's, I mean, immersive is the right word.

It's the most immersive thing I've ever had in my life.

You know, those experiences are just fantastic and I can't wait to see more content.

I like the fact that Apple, the ones that they have right now, they're basically, you know, it's almost like it's a TV show.

Like there's one called "Adventure" and they say episode one is the woman walking on the high wire. - Oh yeah, okay. - It's clear from the demo reel that you see if you go to an Apple store and you put it on, they show you this demo reel.

You can actually see that demo reel in the, oh, one, two, and it shows you snippets of like one that's got gorillas and one that's got rhinoceroses coming right up to the screen.

And, you know, it's clear to me that there are future episodes to be coming out in the future and I can't wait to see them because that stuff is just amazing.

But then there's so many other places that the more you look at, I mean, I think when you and I recorded last week, Brett, I was just so overwhelmed, man.

I'd had it for hours. - You'd only had it a few hours, right? - Right, now that I've had a little more time, I can definitely see how some of the edges are rough and I can only imagine that people at Apple are like, let's ship this 1.0 product and then we're gonna get the 1.1 and the 1.2 and eventually a 2.0 and everything else because there's just a lot of things that just, you know, there's just not many options yet and there's not much there.

You can't rearrange apps on the screen.

I mean, so many just basic things that are just missing.

And that's fine, it's a 1.0 product, I don't mind.

I mean, I'm happy to be part of the journey and see it change over time.

Another thing that has struck me as I've read all the different reviews is it's been a while since I have seen this much variety and what people have thought about the product. - Oh, interesting, okay. - Of course, you know, you're gonna have, some people are gonna like things and some people are not gonna like things, that's fine.

But the Ben Thompson article, for example, one of the things that he complains about repeatedly throughout the article is that he says that the field of view is not as big as he would hope because when you're using the Apple Vision Pro and you have it in your eyes, there's definitely, I mean, if you look a little bit up and a little bit to the side and a little bit down, it definitely, you can see a part where it's black, you know, where you can't see anything there. - Okay, okay. - And what it reminds me of is I've been wearing glasses pretty much my entire life, Brett, but there was a time period many, many, many years ago when I had contact lenses and I ultimately decided they were not for me.

But the first time that I took off my glasses and I wore contact lenses, one of the first things I thought was, oh my goodness, I can see, I mean, of course I can see, but I can see so much more.

I had just been so used to the frame of my glasses around my eyes that just to see that extra, and it's not much, I mean, a little quarter inch out of the corner of your eye all the way around.

I remember thinking, this is how everybody else sees the world.

It's just, it was interesting to me.

And it's one of the things I miss about wearing contacts.

But then I put my glasses back on and I don't even think about the fact that, yeah, I guess if I look up, I can see my frame.

And I wonder if that's what it is too, that for me, when Ben Thompson mentions limited field of view, I don't really notice that at all.

I mean, yeah, I guess if I look up, I can see there's a border, but there's certainly nothing about it that has impeded my experience.

Whereas he mentions it repeatedly and that just shows that everybody's different.

Another example is I had fully expected, I know that some people can get motion sickness and I know that some people are more susceptible to it than others.

And like these faux 3D environments can often trigger some people.

I remember years ago when we went to Disney World and went in some of these rides where like, it simulates 3D through Star Wars or one of those sorts of rides.

My wife would just not go on those things, much like a roller coaster, because she's like, I'm just gonna get motion sickness and I'm not gonna do it.

So I had expected a lot of people to complain about that for the Vision Pro.

And to my surprise, it's actually come up very, very seldomly. - Really?

Okay. - A number of the reviews that I've seen have been people saying that I often get motion sickness, but maybe because of the high fidelity of this thing, which is something we're gonna get to in one of the later posts later on today, I don't.

But one exception was from the New York Times, Brian X.

Chen, his article, which I was just looking at, his review, it was a video he did this morning, and he was talking about how he can't wear it for more than 20 minutes in a row because he gets nauseous.

And I'm like, well, that's interesting. - Oh, really? - So it just, again, much like the eye thing, it depends on the person.

And then another one is the strap.

My Vision Pro, I've just been using the-- - The Solo Knit, right? - The Solo Knit strap. - The one that goes around, yeah, yeah. - And I tell you what, for the first almost week that I had this thing, that was the only strap that I wore because I loved it so much, it felt so comfortable.

And then I saw these reviews of people saying that they didn't like the Solo strap, and they thought that the Dual Knit one was better.

And so last night for the first time, Brett, I actually took this out of the box. - Oh, yeah? - I hadn't even tried it.

And I connected it, and I wore it last night, and I don't like it. (laughing) It's like, I mean, it just doesn't, it's not nearly as nice as the back of the Solo Knit with this nice cool little substance and stuff like that.

It's just not nearly, it doesn't feel as good against my head.

And I mean, I guess it's a little bit more supportive because one of the straps goes over your head and the other one goes behind your head.

But I didn't really notice that I needed it.

But that's just me, that's just for my head space.

So it just goes to show you that I have seen so many reviewers that say, put on the Dual Strap and never go back.

And then I've seen a few people like me say, just use the Solo Knit all the time.

And it just goes to show that this is, perhaps unlike any other Apple product, it's just so many different people have had so many different experiences.

And the last thing that I'll mention about this is the precision of the eye tracking.

Some people I've said, oh my goodness, Apple hit it out of the park, it is so precise.

And then I've had some people, and I noted this in my review too, who have said that, oh, actually, I don't find that it's that precise.

And sometimes I have some difficulty selecting things.

And not to spoil it, but I'm gonna talk about something from my tip of the day at the end of the podcast about one thing that I've done about that.

But I realized that that's just because my eyes are different than other people.

So it's interesting to have a product that is so many different things to so many different people, depending upon your experiences.

And that's one of the big takeaways that I've had from using it. - That's great. - I wanted to say something about this two screens too, but I've been talking a lot.

Anything that I've just said that comes to mind? - That's exactly where I wanted to go.

In fact, one of the things, I didn't get a chance to read all of this by Ben Thompson, 'cause he is so deep, as we said.

But I love this little picture here, where he says at the end of the day, he has his desk, he's got, is this like, this is four monitors, right?

One, two, three, four.

And then he's got his laptop over there.

I think these are two monitors over here on the left.

And I just loved how, yeah.

I just loved how he incorporated that, 'cause we talked about this a little bit last week, where it's, I love that.

Like, I just, I hate now, I've always had multiple monitors, but I'm almost to the point now where I hate being restricted just by whatever monitors that I have in the rectangles.

And it just, that's what I was so fascinated hearing you talk about last week, was like, it's so, so many.

And then there was one other video, I don't think you linked to it, but I saw somebody else posted, to where a gentleman had like screens, multiple screens in the Apple Vision Pro in like his living room, Jeff.

But then he walked to the door in a different room and came back to the living room where he was, and all of those screens were still there.

Is that how it works?

Like, in other words, you can set up like a workspace, even in multiple rooms, I guess, like they were all floating in the air.

And that just fascinated me.

Like, that's a possibility there.

It's not just multiple screens in one location.

Now it sounds like you can go to multiple places or multiple rooms and have like a fun, you know, screen set up there and maybe in different screens set up in another room for work or whatever else.

And that just was fascinating to me, blowing my mind a little bit. - Yeah, let me talk about that first.

And I want to go back to the Ben Thompson point about multiple monitors and stuff. - Yeah. - On that point, and I had noticed this briefly in my review that, yeah, if you, and it was totally wild to me the first time that I did it, you know, I was sitting there at my dining room table and I had all my windows set around me.

And then I picked up the little battery in my hand and I started walking around.

And it was weird that as I got up and moved around, like I literally walked through the window.

And then when I got to the other side of it, I like looked back and I could see the back of the window and the other windows.

And then, and I think I mentioned in my review, like I went into my dining room and I set up the settings pane there.

And then I'm standing in the doorway between the two and I'm looking in one room and I see all these screens, you know, through the Vision Pro.

And I look in the other room and I see my settings app.

It was really freaky.

So you can do that.

Now, one thing about it is that, that does not persist through startups.

Like when you take the Vision Pro, if you just take it off and put it on again and it's still connected to the battery, it'll still be there.

But once you turn the power off of the Vision Pro and you come back, you know, all of that has gone away.

And one of the things that I noted is that in the future, I can absolutely see whether it's a setting or a third-party app or something that you could do to put everything back.

If for some reason you have a setup that you like it, so that the benefit is, it is freaky though, Brett.

It really is that like you're sitting in an environment and when you stand up, the idea that you can go back and look, you know, it's just really crazy. - That's fantastic. - As to the multiple computer screens, you know, I've been playing with this a little bit.

I don't use a Mac laptop.

I just have a PC laptop for work.

What I have at my house is a, well, I used to say an iMac 27 inch.

It's now a Mac mini connected to a 27 inch Apple studio pro basically that the same thing.

And so, you know, my beautiful 27 inch monitor at home, 5k is wonderful.

And if I connect my vision pro to that Mac and I could totally do that, what happens is the physical screen goes black.

And then I have the virtual screen, which I can put wherever I want and I can make it bigger or smaller.

But it's not, if you're comparing an actual computer screen, even one that you're looking at through the goggles versus the virtual computer screen, the actual computer screen is better.

It just is.

I mean, if it's a nice monitor now, maybe for like, you know, here at work, I just use sort of a low cost Dell monitor.

Maybe it's not as good, but if you have a nice Apple monitor, which is by, if you have an Apple monitor by definition, it's nice because Apple only makes nice monitors.

The, you know, the virtual ones are cool because you can place them anywhere and you can make them bigger, but the fidelity is not quite as good.

So then it depends upon what your computer is.

For me with an iMac at home, although I tried it for a while, there's, I really don't gain any advantage currently from connecting my, I keep saying my iMac, my Mac mini to my Vision Pro because I already have a nice monitor.

Now that may change in the future because I think Ben Thompson mentions in this article that he has heard from people that work at Apple that in Apple's labs, they actually have up and running, having two monitors coming from the same computer, just like you had a dual monitor set up.

So therefore maybe for my, myself, I could, you know, use the original Mac mini monitor and then have a second computer monitor without having to buy a physical monitor.

Maybe that would be something that would be something that would be useful, but just to me it's not useful.

But on the other hand, if your Mac laptop has a smaller screen, which many people have, 'cause obviously you don't want to have a huge, huge screen on your laptop computer.

Well, that's when using the Vision Pro can actually really be nice because you can put that to the side and you can make a much bigger screen than you would carry around with. - Okay, okay. - And I think of the same thing for my iPad because although the Vision Pro doesn't take the iPad screen and project it the same way it does a Mac, because you can run iPad apps natively on the Vision Pro, the Vision Pro really is basically an iPad.

I mean, the Vision Pro is an iPad that's 3D.

That's, it truly is.

You know, we talked about the fact that- - I think Ben had that comment, yeah, yeah. - Last calendar year, Apple did not introduce any iPads.

It actually did.

It introduced an iPad called- - This is it.

Oh, interesting. - It's a 3D iPad.

And so when I compare, you know, running an iPad app on my iPad, which even with my 12.9 screen is still like a, you know, a smaller size laptop to running that same iPad app in the Vision Pro screen where I can make it bigger, well, that actually is an advantage.

And I do like that with one caveat of control, which I'll talk about later on.

So anyway, it's just, you know, the more you use it, the more that I've read reviews, the more that I see the things that it does fantastic, like these entertainers, these immersive things.

And then the things where it's like, well, you know, maybe the computer actually is the best device for that.

Or maybe the iPod, I mean, the iPad or the iPhone is the best for that.

It's just really interesting.

And again, so many different people have so many perspectives because it's such a personal device depending upon your eyes and your head and whether you mind the weight.

I didn't mention that one either.

Some people say it's too heavy.

I don't notice it at all.

It's totally fine.

So it's been really fascinating. - Interesting.

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up that thing about the iPad, Jeff.

I kind of hadn't thought about that angle, but you mentioned last week, you had a couple of apps that were not native, quote, native Apple Vision Pro apps, but they were iPad apps and they worked fine.

We've heard from a few developers.

One, I was just telling you earlier, thanks Ian, that apps that we know from like a legal side that actually work on the Vision Pro.

You didn't have to do anything different.

I hadn't thought about that angle and the fact that yeah, it's the iPad from 2023 that they didn't release.

Okay, so we're moving on, but we're still talking about the Vision Pro just 'cause we got some great stories today.

I thought this was one of the best that I saw that you linked to from Jason Cross of Macworld.

It's not like a full review, but it's just multiple bullet points of like some of his impressions.

He talked about the heaviness.

My favorite part on here is that if you can't drink coffee while you're wearing the Vision Pro because the headset collides with your coffee mug, you can use a straw and bottle.

It's just things like that I hadn't really thought of.

Obviously you've been playing around with it all week, but I thought this was a great set of like first impressions and thoughts from Jason Cross here. - And another example of what I was talking about, he's not writing his full review 'cause there's just too much to think about, but he wanted to get some additional thoughts out.

So he has some great bullet points.

For the eating one, I will mention that if you're wearing a Vision Pro and you wanna drink something, you need a straw.

You just do, you need a straw.

If you have a straw, it's fine.

But eating is difficult and you want a straw.

One of the other things that he points out in his bullet points, and it raises a good question.

Why in the world does the Vision Pro not support Find My?

I mean, every Apple device nowadays does.

And it just seems like you would expect to be able to like use the Find My app on my iPhone to see that my Vision Pro is currently, you know, at my home or something like that.

But that does not work.

It just doesn't support it at all.

And I realized that the Vision Pro doesn't have GPS in it, but my iPad doesn't have GPS in it and it still supports Vision Pro just based on the Wi-Fi network. - Right. - That was a good question. - Yeah, Find My, yeah. - Yeah, in fact, one of the things that I linked to in today's post was that, you know, we always talk about AirTags and, you know, anytime the AirTags, which retail for a hundred bucks for a pack of four, anytime that they dip to $80 or less, that's always- - Oh, yes. - And so this week I saw on Amazon that they were at $79.

I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get a few more.

So I bought one.

And then of course the day after I bought it, they went down to $78.

So whatever.

But what I did was one of them I put in the Apple's case for the Vision Pro, which is super nice.

I have mine open right now. - Okay. - It's really, really useful. - Oh, you put one in, okay. - Yeah, there's a little package that goes in the center of the case.

It's got draw springs that you can put in things like your cord and the thing that plugs in the wall. - Okay. - But one of the things that I dropped into here was an AirTag because I figured that way I would have an AirTag in the case for my Vision Pro.

Because for me, I have been truly babying my Vision Pro.

If it's not on my face, it is protected.

It's got the- - Yeah, it's right next to you. - The thing on it that protects the lenses and it's in the case because this thing is super expensive.

And so if for some reason I misplaced my case or can't remember where it was, I now have it a little AirTag in it so I can make a beep or God forbid it was stolen.

I could track it or something like that.

So I stuck one of those AirTags in there.

But that was me working around the fact that it lacks fine line. - Yeah, that's fine. - In fact, my only complaint about this Apple case, which is really a fantastic case.

I know it's expensive at $200, but it's really, really, really nice.

My only complaint is why not have like a little pocket in there specifically for an AirTag?

So you can put that AirTag in the little pocket.

That would have been nice.

Another note that is noted in this notes from the future article from Jason Cross and Macworld.

As he says, "It kills me that there's no way to actually plug anything into this, no USB-C port."

And this comes back to, as I was sort of joking before, the Vision Pro really is sort of, it's very similar to an iPad.

It's just an iPad that you strap to your head and you see in 3D.

And we all know for the iPad, how useful it was when the iPad added USB-C.

Because it meant that you could plug in peripherals, you could plug in external hard drives.

You know, it's not something that I use a lot, but it's definitely something that I use if I wanted to have like a hardwired connector to a projector.

You know, it's having the USB-C port, it's just one of these, you never know when you're gonna need it.

It's useful to have.

And I feel the same way about the Vision Pro.

I'm not telling you there's a specific use case that having a USB-C port would solve for me, but it just sort of seems like maybe it should be there for future expansion. - It could, yeah, right. - Now, there is an exception.

Apple started selling this week, this little bitty device that they call the Developer Strap, and it replaces the thing on the, basically you take off the Vision Pro and put this in, and it goes right where the speaker is over your right ear. - Okay. - And actually has a USB-C connector in it.

So it adds USB-C to the Vision Pro, but it's made for developers.

You can only get it if you're enrolled in the Apple Developer Program, which costs like, you know, a hundred bucks, whatever.

And then you have to pay $300 for the strap.

And the only real advantage is that if you're a developer of an app, because you can directly connect your computer via USB-C to the Vision Pro, it means that you could be like, you know, it would be helpful for like, you know, product images and immediately putting your builds on it.

And so Apple thought that, but my point is, you know, I agreed that there's not many use cases for it, but it is just a little, much like the missing fine line.

It's just a little curious that it's missing, and I could see in the future it being added.

Of course, how many years did it take to add USB-C to the iPad?

Quite a few. - Yeah. - I figured. - Right. - So, but you know, this is just the examples of, and Jason has some other ones good in this article, that the more you think about it, the more you think, you know, it's interesting that it works this way.

I wonder if it should be tweaked.

And you know, we're going to see so much stuff.

I mentioned in my big review that one of the biggest things that I see missing is mobile device management for anyone who works in a corporate environment. - That's right, you did, yes. - And Apple has already announced that in the next update, they are adding MDM support.

So thank goodness.

I'm so excited about that. - Oh, wow.

They must have read your article. - Yeah, I know.

I figured it might be a year before that came out, and I'm hoping it'll be more like a month before that comes out.

So that's a good thing.

But anyway, I-- - It's interesting, real quick, this last, on Jason Cross here, he goes, this is the first time I've seen somebody say, "Where do I put all this stuff?"

We were just talking about how great it is to put all these windows around, and he says, "I quickly ran out of space "surrounding myself with floating windows, "and I have to do a lot of turning and moving around "if I want to be productive."

He says that Vision Pro needs window management tools.

I guess I kinda like the idea of being a little bit more moving around.

I don't know, just real quick, what was your comment on that?

Do you feel like you ran out of space?

I like being able to look around, 'cause I feel like it's just kind of a spatial way to interact and work a little bit better. - It's definitely one of the coolest things when you first put on a Vision Pro, is that you can put things around, and up here, and over there.

But the second part of the statement that it needs some sort of window management tools, absolutely, 100%, cannot agree more.

I mean, this is like what I was talking about before, whether it's leaving windows in one room or the other.

It would also be nice, if you're using an external keyboard with the Vision Pro, Command + Tab does not do anything.

If they just added Command + Tab support as some way to quickly move between windows, at least when you're using a keyboard, it would be so much better. - Yeah, that would frustrate me. - Much like you don't call on the computer.

I mean, how many times do you use Command + Tab or Control + Tab on your computer?

I'm sure you do it every day. - All the time. - And it's the same thing. - Muscle memory, absolutely. - You wanna have quick ways to switch between windows, or maybe to bring in different sets, because although you can have dozens of windows around you, it is true that nobody wants to be in their chair and turning all the windows and stuff. - Well, that's true. (laughs) - But you can definitely see how many-- - Only someone's will. - Yeah, maybe three or four windows, and then a way to quickly switch to a different set of three or four windows.

These are all the power user type features.

And I say power users, I mean, even regular users could use them.

It's just further evidence that this is such, such early days, and there's so much room for Apple to explore and for developers to come up with ideas for how to do things.

And eventually, I just, I can't believe it's not gonna come, just a matter of time. - There are people that are not only exploring what you can do with the Vision Pro, they're exploring how the Vision Pro was built. (laughs) Our good friends, I mean, I don't know them, but I just love following iFixit, because they're so good.

And just, I love just watching them.

They call that a spudge, right?

I think it's like a little plastic thing where you can like get up, but like it's all the things I used to wanna do as a little kid is like take apart, you know, my radios and stuff like that.

This is what iFixit does.

And sure enough, this video, I didn't watch the whole thing, but just the way, it's so intricacy.

And I just know, you know, I think she sped up the video multiple times because there's so many screws that she had to unscrew, and like little pieces of tape that were on.

I mean, you know, first of all, it's fun to watch that video.

Second of all, it's just, oh my goodness, there is so much engineering that goes into this.

And just seeing this breakdown is great.

I'll make sure I'll link to it in the show notes if anybody wants to go and watch it.

But I thought this was great.

I'm so glad that iFixit got to this.

And it's not just the video.

They, if you scroll down, they have incredible high definition pictures of all the different parts and stuff like that.

Some of them- Oh, wow.

It's just really nice.

Oh yeah, look at that. (laughs) iFixit has done two of these videos so far.

And when you scroll down and you get to the videos, I mean, either the video or the pictures of some of the little intricate parts, it is just amazing.

The engineering that went into packing everything.

I mean, the Vision Pro is not a small device, but when you see it, how much they packed in there, it's truly amazing.

I mean, the technology is incredible.

And so I really did enjoy this iFixit post because they will show you different parts and they'll explain to you what it does.

It was the, I think it was the second iFixit post that really focused on those screens.

You know, each one of your eyes is looking at one of those sunny screens.

And they pointed out that because each one of them is approximately a 4K type screen, but because it's so tiny, that it means that if I think I have the quote right, that there are in the space of a single pixel from an iPhone, and we know how small the iPhone pixels are, you could fit 50, 50 Vision Pro pixels.

You know, I think in the video they say that each pixel is smaller than a red blood cell.

I mean, they are tiny, tiny pixels.

And that is part of what makes this so much better than the MetaQuest, but of course it's so much more expensive, so you expect it to be better.

But yeah, what you're showing, what you just scrolled through, Brett, shows the difference in the, no, that's not the one, it's a different post, that showed the difference in the quality.

It was, it's just amazing.

And that's part of the reason that a lot of people that claim that these devices often might give them motion sickness or nausea, but the Apple Vision Pro doesn't.

I think it's because the reality and the vision, and the screen is so, so good, even though for some people, maybe it's not good enough.

But it's a beautiful post.

If you're just interested in the reality, - It's really great. - Look at the pictures, look at the videos.

They do a great job of explaining things.

It gets a huge thumbs up from me. - Although there was at least one Apple Vision Pro that was harmed in the posting.

This video, you can see how they had to tear this apart.

In there, but it's like, hey, I appreciate you doing that for the good of mankind.

Much similar to Benjamin Mayo over at 9to5Mac, who I guess they purchased an Apple Vision Pro solely to see how durable it was, dropping it from multiple heights.

I think one part of the video here he's showing, he just has it on and he's just like slamming his head into doors and into walls, which apparently it held up great.

And the only time that the entire screen broke was I think he was standing on his couch and he dropped it from like almost the ceiling height.

And that spelled the death knell for at least the front of the thing.

Everything is still working for a while.

So this was a great video too. - We often see when brand new iPhones or other devices come out, people buy them and get one and then immediately destroy them.

And there's a part of me that's like, oh, what a waste. - So sad, so sad. - I will say that although I think some of this is maybe just for YouTube clips. - Of course. - There is a value here because you know that Apple's testing the durability, but Apple's not gonna tell the outside world what its own internal test is like.

So it's interesting to see people, even if they're not necessarily experts in engineering, to try to break them, to get a sense of it.

And although the picture at the top of this shows the front of the Vision Pro with all these cracks on it, as you pointed out to get to that, he had to go higher than he could even stand and drop it onto a hard floor for it to break.

And even then what it actually broke was the protective plastic covering on the outside of the Vision Pro. - On the very outside, that's right. - Take that out, the glass underneath it was still fine.

So this is actually a success story to me.

I mean, it shows that this thing holds up to a lot of abuse.

If for some reason you run into a wall with it or something like that, or if you accidentally drop it, hopefully we'll be okay.

And at worst comes to worst, it would be the plastic outer coating.

I don't know how much Apple would charge to replace that.

I was just listening this morning on the way to work to the podcast "Connected".

And on the "Connected" podcast, Stephen Hackett was talking about how the Vision Pro has got the little external battery that normally I just sort of sit next to me.

But if you're gonna be walking around with it, you have to take this battery and put it in your pocket.

And so he was describing how he was sitting on a couch and he had the battery pack in his pocket and he's wearing the Vision Pro goggles.

And then he takes the goggles off and stands up.

But because this was still in his pocket, as he walked away from his couch, it drug Vision Pro from the couch onto the ground.

And I'm like, "Oh no."

And it's like, fortunately it was carpet and it was just a few feet and they didn't get scuffed up.

But this is a mobile device.

I can totally imagine, much like an iPhone, they drop.

People drop them on there.

I can absolutely foresee people that are gonna drop Vision Pros.

And so I'm glad that Apple has really, it looks like going above and beyond and trying to make it as protective as possible.

Having said that, I am paying $25 a month for AppleCare because for some reason I don't wanna pay- - In case you run into a wall. - Yeah, in case I run into a wall. - I didn't see the whole video from Casey Neistat.

Did you see it?

He's like wearing it in downtown New York on his hoverboard and he's like walking around.

And I'm just like, I mean, I like Casey a whole lot, but it's just like, wow, like, you know, how dangerous is that?

I don't know.

Like I think I said, I didn't watch the whole thing, but it sounded like he did a pretty good job.

But I mean, I hadn't, you know, you don't think about this until you gotta think about it, right?

Which is when you accidentally like keep the battery in your pocket and you pull it off and you, you know, slam into a door 'cause you're trying to watch Napoleon or something on the big screen.

But anyway, I just thought that that was great.

Like you said, I do appreciate these, even though I laugh at all of these facts that they're destroying them, but you're right.

We don't get the inside info from Apple and it's just good to have some folks that are willing to, I guess, take the hit of buying a brand new device and then destroying it.

But you know, hopefully they'll get enough YouTube views to cover the cost on there.

Another quick article you linked to from Jason Cross, not only do we have a lot of screws and tapes and clasps that built the Apple Vision Pro, there's also a lot of buttons on the Apple Vision Pro.

Did you find this to be good?

You know, you were talking a little bit last week about how you'd navigate with the different buttons and everything.

And it seems like that you were doing okay with them.

But Jason said, there's a lot of buttons here. - Yeah, there's the two main buttons on the Vision Pro.

There's the digital crown on the right and then there's what they call the top button on the left.

The digital crown button does a ton of different things and you actually use it quite a bit.

You turn it to change the volume and change environments.

One of them that I did not know about until I read his article, which was really useful, is, you know, if I'm using my Vision Pro and I've got all these windows around and I wanna talk to somebody that comes up to me, I mean, I can more or less see them anyway, but if you double press, if you don't, you know, double click on the- - Oh, that's the double click. - Double click the digital crown, it makes all the windows go away.

And so suddenly you're just looking at the environment and that way I can see the person completely.

Now, of course, they're looking at me and I still look like a space alien wearing the goggles, but I can see them clearly and I don't have to worry about, you know, my settings app is covering up their left eye or something bizarre like that.

So that's one really useful thing. - I will say that for the button that's on the left, the top button. - Yeah, the top button. - It really only does one thing.

It puts you into the mode to capture either photos or video.

And this is not something that I've actually done very much.

I mean, I've taken a few pictures and I've taken a few spatial videos just to try it out.

I think most of the time I'm gonna probably feel more comfortable taking spatial videos with my iPhone.

There is an advantage to taking them with the device because when you take them with an iPhone, they're like 16 by nine sort of shape.

But when you take them with the headset, the tops are higher.

It's almost like an iMac screen that there's more top and more bottom.

So you see a little bit more.

So there isn't a slight advantage, but then again, I don't wanna be taking videos of my kid's birthday parties while I'm wearing a headset.

You know, an iPhone fine, but not a headset. - Oh, dad. (laughing) - Otherwise though, there's really not much else that that button does except for turning it on and off.

And I mean, I guess you could say the same thing about an iPhone that the power button doesn't do that many different things. - Right. - But I don't know.

It just, I wonder if that's the best use of-- - So maybe I'm wrong.

There's not a lot of buttons, but there sure are a lot of things that the buttons do.

Like this, I've just seen this digital crown.

He is like, there's a single press, a double click, a triple click.

And then even if the double click, like you were talking about removes all content, apparently you just single click it to return to your content.

As opposed, I would think that you would double click to go back to the, anyway, you know, I'm not an Apple engineer, but then there's both buttons together again, just like you were talking about, right?

Apparently there's a press and hold, there's a press and hold longer, there's a press and hold longest.

But we, I'm kind of used to that, I feel like.

That's the, I still call it the 3D touch, right?

Where like I can press and hold and hold.

Okay, so I mean, I guess they've sort of incorporated a lot of the same things on there, but yeah, it just seemed like I would have to relearn a little bit of how to do it.

But again, it doesn't sound like that you're having that much of an issue with it, which I think is good.

One other app that you linked to today, you mentioned YouTube doesn't have a native app yet, but they're working on it.

But John Vorey's over at Mac Stories, suggest using Juno, which is like a, I guess a YouTube wrapper or something.

He says it's pretty good. - Yeah, I bought it last night, it's five bucks.

It was the first time I bought something in my Apple Vision Pro.

It does a nice job.

I mean, I don't watch as many YouTube videos as some people do, but it's definitely true that, you know, iPad apps on the Vision Pro are not as good as native apps.

And then things that you have to access in a web browser, like the YouTube website are even worse than an iPad app.

So, you know, because right now the only way to access YouTube is to open up a Safari window and watch a video and it's fine, but you know, it's a little fiddly to get to the controls and things are close together.

It's not the easiest thing to control, although it works in a pinch.

Having the Juno app is just a far, far, far better 'cause it's native, the buttons are spread out.

It makes a lot more sense.

So if you're gonna watch a video, and I did watch some YouTube videos last night, they are so much more enjoyable to watch in the Juno app.

Now, I don't know how long it's gonna take YouTube to come out with something.

You know, if YouTube comes out with something next month, well then maybe we won't need this app anymore.

But if anyone out there listening has a Vision Pro and you watch YouTube videos, you know, I thought it was worth the five bucks just to have at least for now a nice way to watch YouTube apps.

And who knows, maybe even after YouTube comes out, maybe the Juno app will still be better for some reason than whatever YouTube offers.

But right now it's just a beautiful app that works really well for watching YouTube content.

So to Bravo, you know, I wish, wouldn't it be nice if we had, you know, what is Netflix is still a holdout.

I haven't tried to watch anything from Netflix on my device, but if I were to try to do so, maybe I'd also prefer this too, I don't know.

But Juno is a nice app.

And it's nice to see people coming out with cool native apps. - It's time for another eulogy for iTunes. (both laughing) I feel like, you know, this is an intimate era, but I'm sure some people are like, what, I don't even, what iTunes?

We don't even use it.

This used to be the music and movie app for Macs.

And then I remember when Apple brought iTunes software to Windows and I think you link today to the famous quote from Steve Jobs about Windows users having an iTunes app.

But I remember, you know, iTunes, I mean, some of the complaints, it was just so packed with things that it could do, right?

Obviously we did it for music and music videos and movies.

And when there was a radio app, and at some point I remember Apple tried to do like a social app, I forget what they even called that, you know, like, you know, liking songs and then sharing it with others.

Thank you.

But one of the things that I used to always use it for, Jeff, and you and I talked about this a lot when we would go to conferences, is it was an easy throughput software way to like copy files from your computer to your iPhone or your iPad.

We would physically plug an iPhone or an iPad into a computer and the iTunes software had a, I think they call it the file manager or file share that change names throughout the years.

But you could go in there and say, I want these documents from my computer to be copied over onto my iPad.

And so I used it for that.

And then the iTunes software would also do a manual, local backup of your iPhone or your iPad.

You know, it just has such a conglomerate of so much stuff.

Well, a few, a couple of, what, three or four years ago now, maybe even a little bit longer, Apple did away with iTunes completely on the Mac software so that it was separated into a TV app and a music app and the, I guess the podcast app.

'Cause that was another thing iTunes did with podcasts, right, for a long time.

So they separated these apps out.

And so we didn't have, we still had the capabilities, but it was pretty much all gone on the Mac.

And the last holdout, there was a free iTunes software for Windows.

And the only reason I think anybody would ever use it, Jeff, you correct me if I'm wrong, was to do a local backup on a Windows computer of an iPhone or an iPad, because, I mean, I don't know if people were even still using it for music, 'cause my opinion, maybe they were.

There was people doing it, I'm sure, but it's gone. - Yeah, I mean, in this age of streaming music and stuff like that, but yeah. - Right. - I mean, as literally on the computer that I'm talking to you on right now, which is my Dell at my office, I have iTunes installed on it and it worked for, I hadn't purchased any music here, but it worked just the way that iTunes used to work on the Mac and it continued to work.

I agree with you, the number one reason I would ever use iTunes was to connect my iPhone to my computer, like for example, to run an app called Camo that adds a, - Yes. - My iPhone as an external camera.

It went through the iTunes interface to do that.

So, but yeah, I have used iTunes on the PC as recently as last week, but finally, finally, Apple has come out with the same apps for Windows that they now have for the Mac.

The only difference is that for those connections on the Mac, it just handles that through the Finder.

So you don't need a special app for it. - Okay, okay. - But for Windows, they don't tap into the Windows file system.

Instead, they have a new app for Windows called, what's it called, Apple Remote or something like that, or I forget what the name of it is, but it's, - Oh, Apple Devices. - Apple Devices. - It's like, yeah, - It's called Apple Devices. - Apple Devices. - Yeah, basically, - Yeah, there it is. - it's the same, it's just the app that allows you to see how much space is in your iPhone.

Do you wanna back it up to your computer? - Right. - Do you wanna manually install something on it?

And so there's still a way to do that with Windows without tying to, but you know, - Wow. - the interesting thing for me is iTunes was such a huge, much like the iPod. - Right. - iTunes was such a huge part of Apple for so long, and now, after previously saying rest in peace on the Mac side, (Jesse laughs) and we finally say rest in peace on the Windows side as well. - It is now officially gone. - Thank you, sir, for your service, much appreciated. - In a few days, there's gonna be a, you know, just a little sporting event happening.

You may have heard it, - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - but I think from our standpoint, Jeff, I don't know about you, but I'm most excited about the fact that Apple is sponsoring the Super Bowl halftime show.

Has this been, have they done this before?

I was trying to think.

I don't think, - Yeah, I think they did it last year too. - Oh, they have, okay.

Okay, okay, okay, that's right, that's right. - It's not Apple, it's Apple Music, to be more specific. - Apple Music, that's right, that's right.

So this year, it's been announced that Usher is going to be the star, right?

And so I think Apple, I think it's done a pretty good job of kind of, you know, pushing this.

I've seen some ads around, but this video that you linked to today is such a much watch.

I mean, it's what, it's only 30 seconds, but I watched it three times, not the least of which, I don't wanna give anything away, but I don't think I've ever seen Tim Cook in a T-shirt.

I mean. (laughs) - You normally don't see that.

It's certainly not a T-shirt with that saying on it, with what's on it.

The funny thing is that is Apple has started something, you know, I think Tim Cook is a brilliant person, obviously from an operations standpoint, the things he's done for the company are undeniable.

Apple is so much more valuable under Tim Cook than it ever was under Steve Jobs.

And you have to give at least some of that credit to Tim Cook.

Having said that, Apple has done something over the last couple of years where they will occasionally have these commercials.

It doesn't happen very often.

There was one with the Mother Nature commercial from a few years ago. - Yes, that was good. - They have a few commercials where Tim Cook appears in it, and he always plays the same version of himself that's sort of dorky and the straight man and stuff like that.

And so they have sort of taken that to the extreme because any video that features both Tim Cook and Ludacris and Lil Jon, and when he refers to Ludacris, not to give too much away, he refers to him as Christopher.

You know, 'cause of course that's how he's gonna refer to himself. - That's how Tim Cook would refer to himself. - I think it's funny.

This is a little 30-second teaser video, but it's clear to me that in the beginning of the halftime show, they're gonna probably, you know, they'll probably run this commercial and then they'll pick up with it.

And I guess there's gonna be some little skit on like where is Usher or something like that. - So funny. - Perhaps Tim Cook will appear again.

But you know, I have to laugh when someone like Tim Cook, you know, I give him some props for not taking himself seriously and allowing himself to be, you know, the sort of one that- - Absolutely. - You're laughing at him, but you're also laughing with him.

It's- - Right.

It's just enough.

It's like a little tiny crack that he allows the light to shine through.

Some humor light to shine through and I love it.

All right, Jeff, close us out.

Give us another tip for, you know, maybe the few of us, of others, of our fantastic listeners that do have a Vision Pro.

What's a good tip that they can utilize this next week? - Eventually I'm gonna write this up on iPhone JD, but I haven't got all my thoughts together yet.

But I can already give people listening to this initial tip.

The Apple Magic Trackpad.

I purchased one of them- - Oh, okay. - Earlier this week, and I guess I've had it since Wednesday.

And again, you can use a keyboard with the Vision Pro.

You cannot use a Bluetooth mouse, but you can use this particular one with the Magic Trackpad, which has been out for a number of years now.

I wanna say it came out in 2015.

The list price is like $130, but you can get it on Amazon for not much more than a hundred bucks.

But the advantage of it is it's much more precise control.

So once you plug this in, when you're in an app, it's just like if you have an iPad connected to a mouse or to a trackpad, and that you see that little circle on the screen.

And it's a little weird because your eyes will move and the circle moves with your eyes, but then you touch the trackpad and you're also moving the cursor.

So sometimes there can actually be some tension between is it your finger moving it or your eye moving it?

And that's something- - Who's doing that?

Okay. - But the reason that I like it is for precision.

You know, I had mentioned a couple of reasons.

One of the things that I mentioned in my review is I have this condition on my eye called nystagmus, and Apple actually talks about this on their accessibility portion of the website, where Apple actually says that, you know, this is Apple's website.

Some medical conditions, some medical conditions such as those involving eyelid drooping, changes in eye alignment, or uncontrolled eye movements, including nystagmus, which is me, make it difficult for vision pro to properly detect your eyes.

And they say that this can impact the visual experience.

And I do find it sometimes that I have trouble controlling the cursor.

And again, I mentioned this in my review, but with this track pad, if anytime I have that as a problem, the track pad is incredibly precise.

It's as precise as my finger moving. - Oh, okay. - And so it allows me to get around that.

So that's just my particular condition.

But even aside from that, you know how we've mentioned this earlier in the podcast, Brett, that you have native apps that are built for the Vision Pro, but then you have a million regular iPad apps that just run.

Those iPad apps, because they were made for an iPad, where you can touch exactly where you want to touch.

I find that the buttons are sort of close together.

And it's ironic because the iPad itself has buttons further apart than a PC, because the PC you use a very precise cursor.

So even though the iPad buttons are more space than a PC, they're still much closer together than you would have on a native Vision Pro app.

And so I find it's doable, but it's harder to control an iPad app using a Vision Pro than using an iPad in some circumstances.

But the trackpad solves that, because you have, it's exactly like, you know, using an external pointer device with an iPad.

It's very precise.

You can very easily click on buttons.

So it works really, really well.

And it's interesting.

I almost expected with the trackpad that I would control this little dot that would be going around in space behind me, but that's not how it works.

It'll be like on one screen.

Like if I have, you know, a dashboard right here.

And then it'll jump from that screen to the next screen that I might have over here, which might be, you know, Microsoft Word or settings or whatever else.

So it sort of sits around from screen to screen, but it does work well.

And let me give you the ultimate use of it is that when I'm away from the office and I'm trying to get some work done, I will often use remote access software.

The one that I use is called Log Me In that I can make my PC appear on my iPad.

And I love that.

So I tried to use Log Me In without a pointer device last weekend, and it was impossible to use.

But then once I had the trackpad plugged in and I could get precise control over it, oh my goodness, Brett, it was wonderful. - It worked. - I'm sitting there at the table. - Oh, that's good. - And this is an example of something that rather than have my PC screen shrunk down to the size of my iPad, not that my iPad's that small, but it's pretty small, but to instead have my PC screen, which is downtown New Orleans in my office, and I'm sitting in my home, I have my PC screen probably the size of a, I don't know, like a 40 inch monitor something like a 45, like a big monitor right there in front of me.

I have this very precise magic trackpad controlling.

It was really nice.

And I was getting work done and I didn't have any of the problems.

So again, this is all early days.

I need to play a bit more, but I can already tell you, much like having a keyboard is a great, great, great hardware accessory, having the magic trackpad, big thumbs up. - I kind of relate to that just in the sense of using my iPad.

I know, I have the magic keyboard, right?

The floating keyboard that has the trackpad in for my iPad.

And so I know that you don't have that or you don't use that, I don't think a mouse with your iPad as much, but there are times Jeff, I think in a similar fashion, even though it's much smaller screen, but I can tap and touch and interact with my iPad at any time, but there are times that I will use the trackpad just because it is that more precise on there.

So that makes a lot of sense.

And I guess I'm fascinated by the fact that that cursor will jump to the window because I would hate to have to like, go, go, go, go, go, keep scrolling over there.

It sounds like somebody thought about that and obviously made sure that it was be a little bit more efficient on that.

That's a great tip.

That's good.

Okay, but again, not any Bluetooth mouse will work with the Vision Pro.

That's what you said, right?

So it has to be interesting. - There's literally, as far as I know, the only thing that you can do is you can either have this external trackpad, which I bought, you can have the trackpad that's built into the keyboard that you own, Brett, that I think you can connect that to it.

And that might be about it.

I noticed, for example, that when I was hooked up to my computer, - Interesting. - My, I use a, it's not a mouse, it's a trackball, a Kensington thing.

My trackball would control the cursor on my computer screen just fine, but it wouldn't jump over to the other Vision Pro windows because Apple just does not want you to use a mouse with Vision Pro.

A trackpad's okay, but it's gotta be this.

So there's not many.

And maybe in the future, we'll see additional pointer devices that work. - Yeah, I would think so. - But right now, you really don't have a lot of choices.

You have the one that's built into the keyboard you have, you have this one that I'm showing, and that's about it.

But again, it doesn't matter how many choices there are.

This one works great.

It's an easy buy.

It's not that expensive.

You know, if you've already spent that much money, another hundred bucks, you know, why not?

And it's a good- - And it's good quality too. - Incredibly good quality.

Yeah, very nice. - Great stuff.

Well, thanks, Jeff.

And thanks everybody for listening to us.

We've had a great week this week with a lot of folks watching that video from last week and a bunch of new folks listening and watching.

So we really appreciate everybody jumping on and spending some time listening to us and geeking out on all of the Apple stuff.

And today, mostly it's the Vision Pro, but that's okay.

It'll probably change a little bit, but I'm excited to keep hearing how you're working with it and experiencing it, Jeff.

So we'll talk again with you next week. - Thanks, Brad.