- Welcome to a special edition of In the News.

It is December 27th, 2024.

I am Brett Burney from AppsinLaw.com. - And this is Jeff Richardson from iPhoneJD.

Hey, Brett. - Good to talk with you again, Jeff.

We were off last week on December the 20th, and we're actually pre-recording this because we knew we wanted to have an episode we wanted to put out today that we're not actually looking at the news of the week 'cause it's a little bit of a slow time, you know, with the holidays and everything.

But we wanted to just take a few minutes to kind of talk about the future as it were, and the future really mostly being 2025, right?

We're getting ready to turn into a new year, 2025, and we don't usually do kind of what we consider to be rumors too much, but we just thought we could just share some thoughts on what we're excited about, what we're looking forward to, and what we predict is gonna be happening in 2025 coming from Apple. - Just the name 2025, that sounds so futuristic. - Nuts. - That's like a quarter of the way, goodness. - I know. - So let's get that magic eight ball out and start to predict what's coming down the road.

What do we got first? - Several things here.

I know we have been talking about this for, well, goodness, just for a long time.

Why don't we start with Apple Intelligence or Artificial Intelligence, AI, but of course, very conveniently, AI can also stand for Apple Intelligence.

We already know this is gonna be a big deal.

I feel like we've been waiting for this.

I mean, we started really talking about this last summer in 2024.

We expected some of it was gonna happen in what October, September when iOS 18 came out, and it really has been a slow roll, but even Apple themselves have promised there's gonna be a little bit more coming in 2025, some of these features that they even talked about in the summer.

I don't know if that's been because they haven't been able to do it yet, or they're just putting in more infrastructure.

There could be multiple reasons that we're never really gonna know why, but we know that that's probably going to be one of the big things coming in 2025 from Apple. - Yeah, it's interesting.

When Apple debuted Apple Intelligence, like you say, it was June of 2024, it was one of the first times that, in my memory, Apple unveiled something, but made it very clear that this is gonna come out in drips and drabs.

This is not just a one-time thing.

It's not just the new iPhone or the new whatever.

They were very upfront about the fact that we would be taking little baby steps.

And part of that's because Apple was sort of taking its time to put this together, but it's interesting.

So, I mean, they told us from the beginning that we would be seeing parts of this in early 2025.

So this is one area where we don't have to rely upon the rumors as much.

The big thing that's coming, and it's perhaps the part of AI that many of us are most interested in is the improvements to Siri, because we often use it to ask questions of our phone.

And it became painfully obvious when chat GPT first became so popular at the beginning of last year, that people like, "Oh, this is so much more advanced than Siri.

I can ask it all these questions.

I can ask it to write me a poem, and it's gonna write me a poem or write me a song."

And so people instantly saw the difference between a generative AI model with an interesting interface versus the types of questions and answers that would be provided by Siri, many of which were things that Apple sort of had to pre-write what the answer is, or it's something that it could figure out, like doing a timer or something.

And so Apple has promised that we're gonna have both a version of AI within Siri itself.

And then for some questions, it'll be able to reach out and be using chat GPT more, and maybe in the future, even some of these other generative AI models, like maybe the ones that Google has, or Anthropic, or who knows what.

But so I think it's interesting that, we're gonna see more of this in the beginning of 2025.

I'm sure that at the WWDC conference in June of 2025, when Apple announces what is coming out for the following year, we're gonna learn even more about the next generation of AI stuff.

And it's just interesting to me.

So far, the things that they have been rolling out with Apple AI have been frankly the easy ones, the summarize some emails, or do some pictures, but it's all stuff that we've seen done before.

Not that Apple's version of it might not be a little bit better or more polished, but I look forward to the transition between the early versions of AI that we have now into, okay, now Apple's got a foundation.

What directions could they take us that we actually haven't seen in other products?

And how can they make all this more interesting?

So we know it's gonna be a big focus for Apple.

Tim Cook talks about it often.

I'm really looking forward to what AI is gonna bring us this upcoming year. - So one of my predictions then, kind of along those lines, and this isn't like a bombshell or anything, but I feel like getting into this, I would call some of these improvements with Apple intelligence, and just like you were talking with Siri, and the fact that we can inquire some information and it can go to an iCloud version of an LLM.

And then if we want to, we could go outside to a chat GPT LLM.

I feel like this is becoming more of almost an interface, that a way that humans, us humans, can now interface a little bit differently with technology, right?

I mean, I feel like we've seen some of this over the years with the idea that we touch screens as opposed to physical keyboards, kind of a thing.

We take that for granted today.

And I feel like the way that Apple is sort of rolling out some of this aspect with not just the Siri component, but that's the main way that we would interface with not just like giving a command to something on our phone or even our watch or anything, but it would be a way that we would interact with the technology in a different way.

And another thing that I know we have talked a little bit about on our podcast is this Home Hub or the Home Command Center.

Here's a great story from Mac Rumors that Julie Clover has covered a lot of this.

Like, what could this look like?

At one point we were even talking about a HomePod be having a screen on it.

And I remember even thinking to myself, okay, well, that's not that big of a deal.

You know, I've got an Apple TV or so, but just maybe going to like a different way to think about interacting with the technology so that it could be something that's there.

I mean, again, this isn't anything new.

We've got Alexa, we've got Google, you know, we've got all these other platforms, but could Apple be doing a little bit of a better job on the fact that they're piggybacking off of what they have already done with Siri, whether you hate it or don't like it or do like it.

I mean, it really is a great foundation here, I think, for a lot of these other products that I think that we will continue to see in 2025 and beyond. - Yeah, in fact, you just mentioned something that I just wanted to highlight it, that there's sort of two aspects going on here.

There's the backend, there's, you know, the machine that comes up with the answers.

And we've talked about things like Chat GPT and some of these other engines.

And one of the rumors, in fact, you had it on your screen for a second, and this came out, gosh, in what, last November, I think people were reporting that Apple was working on its own LLM, its own large language model.

So that instead of relying upon like a Chat GPT, the open AI type stuff, they would have their own.

And we've also heard these rumors about how they're working on an LLM model that can actually run on device.

And Apple's published papers on this and some of the, and, you know, we don't know what this means, but much like Apple now makes its own chips, right?

It didn't used to be that way.

It used to be they used In-Shell chips and even before they're on Motorola chips.

But now since Apple designs its own chips, it can actually make the chip that's perfect for the iPhone and the iPad.

And as a result, it can do things that its competitors are unable to do because they don't have that control.

And I can see a future that we'll see the beginnings of next year and going on afterwards, where Apple is designing because they have their own LLM, they know what they want it to focus on.

They know what to train it on and how to make it.

And so that you end up having an engine that makes more sense for us as users.

And that's exciting.

So that's the backend stuff.

And then the other thing that you said. - Yeah, can I just say real quick on that, Jeff?

I mean, to your point, Apple has already been putting in these neural engines into their chips, right?

Which is way beyond, like, I don't know that people understand the significance of that, the fact that Apple has already been doing this and building that backend.

I think that gives them a huge, you know, a headstart over a lot of other platforms.

We just haven't been able to kind of see everything catch up to that.

But anyway, just to say, like Apple has already been putting this in, like they don't talk about it as much, but they already have neural engines in pretty much all of their devices already.

So I just wanted to underscore what you were saying there from the backend side. - Yeah, so they're going to be doing some really more innovative stuff.

That's going to be fun to see.

And again, we'll see some of it in 2025.

Others are going to come, you know, even the coming year.

So that's the backend part.

And then there's the interface part. - And you know, we recently talked about how on a previous episode, how the cover story of the current issue of Wired Magazine has Tim Cook on it.

And one of the questions that he was asked by Steven Levy was, do you see Apple charging for Apple intelligence?

And he said, no, for the reason that you just mentioned, Brett, he said that they view this Apple intelligence sort of like the multi-touch for a touchscreen.

They just see it as part of your interface into technology.

And so that's going to be interesting to see on the phone, which I presume is going to be mostly talking and verbally.

And then that leads right into this device, which we're calling the Home Hub.

We don't know what Apple's going to call it.

They may call it the Home Hub, but it's the idea that what if you had just sort of command center for your home, for your smart home and this product idea, there's been so many rumors that I have to assume that there's some truth to it.

Now, just of course, there were lots of rumors that Apple was making a car too, and then they shut that down.

So just because they work on something doesn't necessarily mean it's going to come out.

But these rumors are strong enough that I do think that there's a good chance in 2025, for a long time, they were saying in the spring, I recently saw, I think Mark Gurman or somebody said, maybe it'll be more towards the end of the year.

But at some point in 2025, we will see hopefully a new Apple product.

And that's always fun.

When Apple comes out with the iPhone or the iPad or even the Apple Vision Pro, when they come out with new products, we all sort of stand up and take notice.

And so what will this product be?

The idea is it will have a screen and it will be something that's part of your home.

And it will presumably allow you to control things in your home.

So if you have HomeKit accessories or Matter/Thread accessories for your lights or your smart vacuum cleaner, or your whatever, you have your security system, your cameras, this will be sort of a central place to control it and presumably other information too.

And the idea of this is nothing new in that, back in the day, Brett, before there was an iPhone, before I was an iPhone user, I used to use Palm devices.

And I remember that one of the things that Palm worked on a year ago was this product that they called Audrey.

And I don't think it ever actually shipped.

But the idea is that it would be a larger screen, of course, back in then it was a black and white screen, that would just sit in your kitchen.

And it would be like the central sort of screen of your kitchen.

And I don't think it actually was produced, but it was an interesting idea of having this one thing.

And again, Google has it's, or Amazon, excuse me, Amazon has its Echo Show, that's the same idea.

You might put it in your kitchen and it's a screen, but it could just have some, whether it's just showing pictures of the family on it or more sophisticated, like a calendar, like a shared calendar, it's the idea.

So I don't know how Apple's gonna approach it, but this is the idea is that this device is going to be sort of a central hub of information.

The rumors are that the form factor is going to be something that sort of looks like an iPad, and that it's a flat thing that you could hang on a wall if you want, or it will come with an accessory that you could put it into a stand.

And that stand might resemble, one of the rumors, and you just showed it on the screen, is that it might look like that, the Mac from years ago, where it had that dome base with the, which was, that was the iMac G4. - The iMac G4, that's right. - Which of course was such an iconic, devout design.

But the bottom part might be sort of like a home pod, like a speaker, so you could listen to music, but then it would have this screen, who knows what form factor Apple's gonna use.

But I think it'd be interesting.

I don't 100% know all the use cases I would have for it in my house, but it definitely sounds intriguing.

And I'm sure that Apple is not doing it unless they actually have some real good, Apple loves to show practical examples for using their products. - Right. - And I look forward to hearing the pitch for this one.

So, and then, well, let me pause right there for a second, because I wanna talk about what the Home Hub might mean for the rest of that smart home.

But any other thoughts that you had on this command center, this Home Hub, whatever it's gonna be called? - Just the fact that I, we've heard rumors, in fact, in this story from Julie Clover, she's talking about several of the rumors, even from Mark Gurman, who is obviously somebody that we follow very closely.

And we can tell that when his thoughts get a little bit more focused, it's probably something that's a little closer to market, kind of a thing. - Exactly, exactly. - And it looks like that it's getting closer to that point in time.

And then another quick story here, on Six Colors from Jason Snell, who always does beautiful graphs, and just seeing where the wearables and the home accessories, the revenue from Apple is starting to come.

Like, this is starting to grow.

This is something that Apple is obviously watching.

The wearables, of course, include the Apple Watch and the AirPods and everything.

But I think they can see that there's a little bit of a trend here, that we are starting to like some of these additional accessories that are not just an iPad or a computer or an iPhone.

And so I think all of that just kind of continues to support what probably has been a rumor.

It is still a rumor, it's not confirmed by Apple, but it looks like something that is gonna certainly happen in 2025.

I've said this in the past on this podcast, but there was this rumor years ago that Apple was looking at purchasing Eero, and instead, of course, it was purchased by Google.

But if Apple had purchased Eero, which is a wifi router, and they had used that as the foundation for the HomePod, I just feel like Apple could have started this whole line of products for a home that Apple hasn't gone down that road, with the one exception of the HomePod.

And so if it's true that Apple is coming out with this new device, and consistent with what you just said from Jason Snell's post, suggesting that Apple would love to expand its share of this market of the home, I would love it if Apple itself would, I mean, it's nice for Apple to work with third parties, but I would love to see Apple itself come out with some of these devices for your home, things that could be connected to this theoretical home hub that's coming out next year to enhance it.

And of all the things that you could have, I mean, speakers of course are obvious, and I'm sure that HomePods will work with it, but the one that jumps out at me is cameras.

And the reason I say that is, a lot of people have cameras associated with their home.

Maybe you have them inside of your home, actually looking at it for security purposes.

I don't have that right now, and some people are a little freaked out about a camera inside of your home, but a lot of people have them outside of your home, both from a security standpoint, and also just because it can see when people come home and stuff like that, and I like it.

I have for a couple of years now been using these Eufy cameras, which were, I thought, some of the best options at the time, and I still use them, and I still enjoy them, but I have to admit that I have issues with them, and sometimes they don't always work the way they're supposed to because they're wireless, and so they don't always come on when you work them to.

And the interface between the Eufy cameras and Apple's HomeKit, it's a little janky.

It's not perfect, so much so that I've noticed that in the next generation of Eufy products, they don't even work with HomeKit anymore.

They just said, "Whatever.

We're gonna do our own system," which is not necessarily a bad thing 'cause their own system is pretty good.

I would love a world in which Apple came into this market and said, "We are gonna sell Apple cameras.

They're gonna work incredibly well with our Home Hub.

They're gonna work incredibly well.

They're gonna work incredibly well with our iPhones and our iPads."

They're not cheap, and when you buy these cameras, I mean, they cost hundreds of dollars, so there's definitely room for Apple to make money on it.

Obviously, Apple's all about making their money and making lots of profit, but I think that it would be something that would just work.

At least that would be my hope because typically, that's why I like buying Apple products.

And so I would love it if Apple would not only come out with the Home Hub, but would use that as a launching pad for, and maybe this won't be 2025, maybe this will be in future years, but having the other things in your home that come along with it.

And again, I'm very cognizant of the statement that Steve Jobs was famous for saying and many others have repeated it, is that Apple was great, not just at what they said yes to, but what they said no to.

Because especially in the dark days of Apple in the 1990s and early 2000s, they had to be focused.

They had to, let's not go down this rabbit hole and have people spending time on things that are never gonna pan out, like more recently, the car.

But at the same time, I would like it if Apple did branch out a little bit, because when Apple comes out with products, they're not always perfect, but they often are very well thought out, nice design, et cetera.

So anyway, of all the rumors that we're talking about today of what Apple's coming out with in 2025, the one that I'm personally most interested in is this Home Hub, not only because it's a new product and I can't wait to find out how Apple approaches it, but because of the potential that it could be the beginning of a new emphasis for Apple in the home, which I personally think could be really exciting. - And I'm getting more excited, because I think when I first heard about this, I'm like, I already have an iPad.

I can kind of turn that into its own hub.

But the more I'm thinking about this and even listening to you, and in fact, one of the things I just thought of with the camera, I can see where you're going, but I was even thinking of it, if the cameras are there and they can be implemented with this Home Hub, I'm so excited about the potential of maybe recognizing gestures or seeing, because how well that that has been implemented with the Vision Pro, right?

The fact that you can use hand gestures to interact with the Vision Pro and the apps inside that, it's like, could that be a good use of some of the cameras?

Anyway, that's what I was thinking of in that aspect.

So interesting thing.

I hope we see some hardware in 2025.

No one can know for sure, but I think at the very least, we would have some kind of an announcement at WWDC, right?

In the summer of 2025, but I would love to see a hardware come out sometime, may not be until like the fall of 2025, but that would be good.

Would it be fair to call the iPhone, the cash cow for Apple?

It continues to roll on.

And so I feel like we can't talk about a future episode without at least mentioning what we presume will be the iPhone 17 that will come out in 2025, probably closer to August or September.

Any other quick thoughts on the iPhone 17 other than better, sleeker, and better camera, better processor kind of a thing, right?

I feel like those don't even have to be said, but what else could they possibly do?

Maybe another button?

Maybe they take away another button, I don't know. - You know, we know there's one thing that you can count on is Apple is going to have a new iPhone in 2025.

It's gonna come out in that first or second week as it always does.

And then it will be available a few weeks later and a ton of people will be buying them.

I mean, it happens with such clockwork every year that we know what's gonna happen.

So the question is, is what are they gonna do next?

And there's been two big, they're not competing rumors, but I think that they're a little mutually exclusive.

Like there's two different products.

One rumor is that Apple wants to have some sort of a folding screen.

And this is something that there are currently Android phones that have folding screens.

And the idea of it's neat, because you could do it two ways.

You could either have it fold sort of like a long thing that folds down, which would remind me of the days when, you know, way before smartphones, when people used to love those Motorola flip phones, you know, that everybody used to have.

Those were great.

And so there was something, you know, you could fold it and it's small and you open it up and it's larger.

That's one way to go.

And the other way to go, and this is the way that there are products on the market right now that you can buy that do this, is it looks like an iPhone and then it folds open like a book.

And then it has a bigger screen that has almost like a little bitty iPad mini or something like that.

And I think both of those ideas are interesting.

Folding screen technology is still a little immature, even though there's products that you can purchase right now that have it.

You know, people have mixed emotions about it, mixed experiences with it.

You can sort of see the fold and, you know, they're delicate, so they're gonna more likely break.

But Apple is, I mean, all the rumors is that Apple is looking at this.

Of course, Apple looks at everything, just because they look at it doesn't mean they're gonna actually do it.

But this is one set of rumors is that we'll have a folding iPhone.

Would it be 2025?

Who knows.

The other rumor that's been hot is that Apple is looking at a really, really thin iPhone.

And, you know, the idea would be that this would be sort of a sleek, sexy iPhone.

It might be more limited in some of the power that you would get with the regular iPhone, but it would be an alternative for people who want something that just has a really interesting form factor.

And the reason that I think that, this does not surprise me at all, if Apple does it for a couple of reasons.

One, this is true in the US, but it's especially true internationally that they've said that historically, when Apple comes out with a new design, a ton of people, like they have huge sales, especially in places like China, because it's such a visual, like it's so obviously the new thing.

It doesn't look like the older iPhones.

And so it's something that people are like, oh, I'm gonna buy it because I wanna try the new thing.

I wanna have the new thing.

Maybe it's a social status sort of symbol, but they just want the new thing.

And a super, super thin iPhone would look like the new thing.

The other reason it's interesting is that Apple has clearly, we're gone are the days when Apple just had an iPhone every year.

They now, when they just had the iPhone 16 come out, they have the four models, right?

They have the entry level iPhone, and then let's just skip for a second.

And then you have the iPhone Pro, whether it's the regular model or the one with the big screen called the Max.

But the one thing that's been a little bit of a variable has been that fourth model.

Right now you can get a low end iPhone, low end only meaning that it's not a Pro, but still a great phone, called the Plus, not the Max, but the Plus.

And the Plus means that you get the bigger screen, but you don't get all of the additional processing power and cameras and stuff like that that you get in the Pro model.

And they've been doing the Plus for a few years now.

If you go back in time a little bit, they went the other extreme and Apple had the iPhone mini, which many people loved because it was so small and tiny.

You know, they had a small screen.

But that was a different form factor.

But Apple has often explored, let's have a different, like going back even further in time, they had the iPhone, I forget the number, but it had a C attached to it.

And it was sort of a lower cost.

I guess it was maybe it was the SE or the early versions, but it had like sort of a very bright plastic on the back of it.

I remember we bought one from my grandmother.

It was less expensive, it was more durable, but you know, they've had like, let's have one iPhone that's a little different.

And so it would be very consistent with past practices for them to have a new iPhone this fall, or maybe the following fall, if it doesn't come out this year, that would have like a, let's just do something different and see what happens, see what people think.

And going thin, you know, maybe it doesn't have all the oomph of the pro, but it's just super thin, super light.

You know, you put it in your pocket, you can barely feel it.

And plus Apple loves to make things smaller and thinner.

There's so much about this rumor that it just jives with what Apple does that I feel like there's some credibility to this one.

So it would not surprise me if we, and what is Apple gonna call it?

Who knows, that's a marketing decision, but you know, the iPhone Air, I don't know.

But, so those are the two big rumors for the iPhone.

And I don't know that either one of them will come out ever.

And I don't know if they'll come out this fall of 2025, but those are my guesses though. - While we can probably bank on a new iPhone in the fall, one thing that's a little bit of a wild card is new iPad.

Maybe, maybe not.

It just seems like, I mean, for a while there, that was on like every March, right?

We would get sort of a new iPad and then we skipped one year and it's like people didn't know what was going on, but then you picked up one of the new M4 iPad Pros.

I know you have been extremely happy with that.

Is it time in 2025 for an M5 iPad Pro, maybe?

Is Apple gonna skip another year here?

This is a little bit of a wild card, I think. - Yeah, Apple is now at the point, since they designed their own chips, that they tend to be coming out with a new generation every year.

So we have the M4 this year, which debuted on the iPad Pro that I own and it came to the Mac and stuff like that.

And a version of it's gonna, you know, was in the iPhone.

But so it would not surprise me if Apple comes out with the M5 in 2025.

There's already some rumors on what it's gonna be.

Initially there were rumors there was gonna be even a smaller chip, which allows for more efficiency, like a two nanometer process.

The latest rumors is that it's actually gonna be a three nanometer, so it won't be a small, but there's gonna do some other features to it.

But that's all the technical details.

In terms of, you know, what do you expect?

Of course it's gonna be faster.

Of course it's gonna have more power built into it and more built in things.

But then the question is, is because they have the new chip, what do you put it in?

You know, you could put it in some new Macs.

I'm sure there'll be a MacBook Pro that has it.

I'm sure the iPhone will take advantage of new chips.

Do you have to improve the iPad every year?

I don't know.

But if you have the chip available, maybe so.

So again, no one's really talking about what user features it will have.

But it would be interesting if after going through an entire 2023 with no iPads at all, and then we have the great new iPads that came out in 2024, would they come out with new iPads in the latest rumors?

It'll be the end of 2025.

We'll see.

I don't know. - Remind me, when did you get your M4 this year?

It wasn't March, was it? - No, it was in the spring.

I wanna say May, maybe.

You'd have to look it up. - Okay, okay.

So just a little bit later.

So I'm just wondering, would we see something again?

That's right.

I think it was in May, 'cause I remember- - It was in May.

Yeah, May 16th when I wrote my review. - We were hoping that March was gonna come out.

But yeah, I don't know.

I mean, it seems like an M5 chip is definitely gonna be coming out, whether that's gonna be put into the iPad, to your point, or they're just ordering M5 chips because they know that's gonna be the next generation for the Macs and other things.

Okay, anyway, just good to know.

Keep an eye out.

I just don't feel like there's as much excitement around the iPad release as there is an iPhone or even a MacBook Pro.

Although we saw from the numbers, I mean, it's not like they have stopped selling iPads.

There's millions that get sold every year.

So it is still a good marker in Apple's business.

I don't feel like either they're not as excited about it or maybe the public is not quite as excited about it yet. - Let me say, the reason that I am not necessarily excited about the next iPad is, to be clear about this, I think the 2024 iPads are awesome.

I mean, the iPad Pro- - Yeah, you've talked about that. - Is fantastic. - Right. - The regular iPad, the middle of the line- - What more do you need? - It is a fantastic device.

And if you want the low-end iPad that has nothing attached to the name, you can get that one.

Like, we have a great lineup this year, and those iPads are gonna be just as good in 2025 as they are now. - Yeah, that's a good point. - To a certain extent, be just as good in 2026.

So yes, I do expect some tweaks, but I think that the tweaks will be nice for people if they do come up with a new iPad for the people that didn't quite upgrade and now they're ready in 2025.

But I think a lot of people that purchase new iPads this, you know, 2024 are gonna be set for a while and won't be buying in 2025. - Yeah.

One thing you've had for almost a year now is your Apple Vision Pro, Jeff, or close to a year, right?

You're coming up on it pretty quickly.

Any comments or thoughts that you think about for the Vision Pro?

I remember a couple of weeks ago, we talked about Tim Cook, you know, and his vision, and this is, you know, the speculation, 'cause there's other companies that are coming out with smaller and lighter, different headsets and glasses and ways that this could go.

Do you think we'll see a lighter Vision Pro in 2025, or is it just not yet?

Are we still, do you think Apple is still gathering data and information from folks?

I mean, I feel like there's gonna be some kind of rumors that would be coming out in 2025.

I just don't know yet if there's another hardware coming out in 2025. - Yeah. - I would like to be wrong, but that's sort of where I land on this. - That's my prediction too.

I don't think we'll see new hardware in 2025.

I mean, in the longer view, I mean, as you just mentioned, that Tim Cook article again from Wired, he admits that in the longterm, what they wanna do is have something like glasses that are so easy you could wear them all day long.

And the current Vision Pro is not that, but that product is still, I'm sure, a couple of years away.

Especially that it can be affordable.

Also, the Apple Vision Pro hardware, I mean, yes, it's clunky and big, and I'm sure it'll get eventually smaller, but it's really good.

I see no issue from a hardware standpoint that they really need to address in 2025.

What I want to address is the non-hardware aspects of it, which means improving the operating system.

I mean, when you use the operating system on the Vision Pro, it feels like those, I mean, you remember this, 'cause you and I lived through it, the early days of the iPhone, when it's like, we don't have copy and paste, but maybe someday we will.

It's like, it's the same thing.

What if we had an app store?

We're in those early stages that there are some things that you have, little features that you have on an iPad or an iPhone, and certainly a computer, and they're just not on the Vision Pro yet.

So Apple needs, and I understand why it's brand new, Apple needs to continue to work on the software side.

They need to have developers continue to play around and come up with new apps and new ways to use it and stuff like that.

And this is all gonna happen, and it's gonna build up the ecosystem so that when Apple does come out with that second generation, which may be 2026 or even later, they can build upon all that stuff and have those apps out there.

At the same time, one of the focused applications of the Vision Pro is just as an entertainment device, and it's most compelling when you have these spatial videos.

Every month now, Apple comes out with new things, and I hope that that continues at an increased rate in the year 2025.

I wanna see even more music videos and TV shows.

I wanna start to see TV shows and more movies.

Right now, we just have that one movie, the submarine movie that came out in 2024 that was recorded in spatial video.

I wanna see a lot more of that in the upcoming year, not only from Apple, but because the tools are now out there with things like the RED camera, which is like this high-end camera that has ways you can just start to use spatial.

I wanna see more third parties coming out with really immersive spatial content.

So I have big hopes for 2025 for the Vision Pro.

It's just not on the hardware side.

It's on the software side.

Plus, I will also add, I spent so much money on the Vision Pro in 2024 because that thing is expensive, Brett, that I don't want them to come out with something new because if they do, I'm gonna have to think about how I can buy it, and it's gonna be too much money, and I can't afford it.

So just for the sake of Jeff's wallet, no new hardware in 2025 is my hope. - No new Vision Pros.

That's good, I like it.

Well, the Apple Vision Pro is one of Apple's most expensive consumer items.

Let's look at one of Apple's least expensive consumer items, the AirTag.

Any thoughts on the AirTag 2?

A good story from Julie Clover in MacRumors.

Maybe just about a little bit of a different design, maybe a little bit of a broader network, or the fact that you can be further away, so the bandwidth is a little more.

Interesting, I mean, to me, I feel like this is almost a no-brainer.

Like, Apple should continue to improve the AirTag and just keep pumping them out. - Yeah, you know, when Apple came out with the original AirPods, they're like, "Oh, these things are..."

People loved them, they were so great.

And it's like, we knew in the back of our head that of course they'll upgrade them over time, but I wasn't exactly sure what they would do with them because, for example, it never even occurred to me that in something that fits in your ear, there would be a way to make it noise cancellation.

I used to associate noise cancellation with those Bose things that went over your head.

And yet, you know, and yet Apple showed that you don't have to have over the ear for noise cancellation.

So likewise with the AirTag, and like you say, people buy them, they can be so cheap, you can get them for like 20 bucks at the cheapest now.

I hope that Apple comes out with something new, but it goes beyond my imagination.

I don't know exactly what it would be.

You know, they have this ultra wide-brand technology that if they maybe came up with the next generation of that so that it was even, it did even a better job of helping you find things in an even more precise manner, that I guess could be useful.

I don't know.

I mean, I don't know what it would be, but it just seems like such a popular product that, and people will often buy more of them for like, you know, put in a different place.

I'd love to come out to see Apple improve it.

I just don't know what it would be.

And I haven't seen any rumors that really, you know, point to anything specific.

So I don't know. - I have to be honest with you.

The first time that I saw the fact that Apple relied on the CR2032 battery, number one was great because it's replaceable.

So that means that I just can go and buy some other batteries and do it.

The second thing was really like Apple, you're, I mean, that just seems so non-fluid, you know, it's a little more practical, but it doesn't seem as fancy as what you would typically do.

I don't know what I would be expecting anyway.

But the point that I'm getting to here is that, you know, most people that I hear, if there is a complaint about AirTag, it's just that it's too thick, right?

I mean, there are many ways that people put them into wallets and other things.

We were just, I know we've talked about like your Eufy smart wallet card.

I feel like from a design perspective, if they could get that down, shaved down a little bit, but does that mean it doesn't use the same battery then at that point?

You know, I don't know.

I mean, that's obviously what the design aspects there.

Does that mean they have to have a rechargeable battery or is it a disposable battery?

You know, that once it's done, it's done and it lasts for a few years.

I don't know.

Those are just some of the things that I think would be important.

But I mean, again, I feel like this is such a successful little, tiny, amazing item.

And, you know, we talked about a story that it's so good that even the airlines, at least in the United States, have agreed to take signals from the AirPad.

Like you could share, I could share my AirTag signal with the airline for them to help track my bags as opposed to the fact that the airlines all have their own way to track bags.

But I mean, to me, something like that was pretty significant that just shows you this is just gonna be an item that should be, you know, everywhere in this aspect.

And I feel like surely, I mean, there are some very, very smart people at Apple that can maybe just streamline this just a little bit more.

And I would love to see that on there.

How about let's, okay, two more items quickly, Jeff, before we go, let's go to the AirPods quickly, 'cause I know we mentioned the AirPods, and then I wanna, we'll talk about the Apple Watch here in just a moment as well.

The AirPods 2, I gotta get a better link to this, I think, here, but I think I was disappointed this year in 2024 that we didn't see a new AirPods Pro 3.

I, believe me, I'm, you know, similar to what your comments about the iPad Pro from this year, I'm very, very happy with my AirPods Pro 2, and I'm almost like, what can it do better?

But as we've seen time and time again, I know there could be some slight improvements that could make a big deal.

I mean, not to mention the fact that this year, Apple came out with the hearing test, for crying out loud, right?

And the fact that the AirPods Pro can be, the AirPods Pro 2 can be used as sort of like a hearing aid, a quasi hearing aid, if you will.

I mean, that isn't more of a product aspect, but that's more of a functionality component, which just is amazing and what they're able to do.

But I am all in for a new version of AirPods Pro 3, and I think 2025, we could see something. - Yeah, the batteries in AirPods are so small that they do wear out over time.

And so it is a product that you do find that at some point you're looking for a replacement.

And so it's nice when you do upgrade, when you do get a replacement, that you could upgrade and get something new.

So from that standpoint, there's a natural built-in market for people purchasing new ones, even if they currently use them.

I was surprised when the hearing aid feature was announced.

That sounds like something that would be part of a new product.

And the idea that they told me that the AirPod Pro 2 that I already had and loved was gonna have this new feature.

I'm like, well, hey, that's great.

Don't have to buy something new. - That's almost like an upgrade right there. - But it does make you sort of wonder.

I mean, one of the rumors, and we know that, again, back to that Wired article, Tim Cook talked about how health is such a focus for Apple.

I've heard rumors of additional things that they could do with AirPods to be part of Apple's health initiatives.

For example, an AirPod in your ear could measure temperature.

Now, temperature is something that was added to the Apple Watch not that long ago.

Right now, it's really just being used for ovulation tracking.

So for me personally, it's not that useful.

But it would be interesting if, maybe in conjunction with the Apple Watch or independently through the ears, if it could sense your body temperature over time and based upon that, make predictions.

One of the things, again, in that Wired article that Tim Cook was asked about was that right now, Apple gets all this data about your body.

They have the data from your watch and maybe in the future from the AirPods and stuff.

And one of the things that artificial intelligence can be really good at is coming up with these models and coming up with conclusions that we see this trend that people that have symptoms A, B, and C, it tends to mean D.

And so could you envision a future, Tim Cook was asked in the article, where Apple products predict medical problems even before a doctor does.

And his answer was yes, that he did think that that could come in the future. - That's AI. - And it gets interesting because then you get to the idea of is the watch acting like a doctor?

But I mean, we already have things that if you wear your Apple Watch at night and it detects that you may have sleep apnea, it will give you a warning.

And so I see more of this in the future.

So AirPods would be a way that Apple, that this is something that I can imagine.

I'm sure Apple's looking at it, whether it will be ready, whether it will come out in 2025, who knows.

But I have no doubt that there will be a future version of an AirPod that has some sort of a sensor in it.

Temperature is the most obvious to me, but maybe there's something else too that would make it more of the health initiative.

Again, we've already started with the fact that we have the hearing test, but I could see them going even further. - Are we ready to say 2025, we'll see a new AirPods Max?

(laughing) Am I correct? - Will we ever see them? - Did it come out in 2020?

I mean, is it like almost four years old now or five years old? - Well, they did say it this year, but they didn't really change it. - Yeah, that's right. - They did this year, but barely changed anything.

And so, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know why Apple does not wanna put. - I know, I see this, the AirPods normal, the AirPods regular four, and the AirPods Pro 2 all use this H2 chip.

And look at this, the AirPods Max is still using an H1 chip, which, I don't know, there's a huge difference there, but I'm just saying, like it hasn't been updated. - It's the initial AirPod. - Right, like that's the first generation, but I still see people, mostly younger folks, including my college age daughter, using AirPods Max and they love them.

I don't understand why Apple has not done something a little bit more.

I mean, I could be tempted to do an AirPods Max if it came out, even though to me they're still bulky and I would definitely love my AirPods Pro, but yeah, I want an AirPods Pro 3 and an updated AirPods Max in 2025.

That's what I want, but that's more of a wishlist than a prediction.

I'll be kind, Jeff.

All right, last thing before we stop, how about the Apple Watch?

You know, it is the Apple Watch 10 that came out in 2024.

I know you like it.

I know that I'm envious of your Apple Watch Series 10 just because it's svelte.

I just, I like it, even though I still have my Apple Watch Ultra 1 and I'm still very, very happy with that for several reasons but it occurs to me, other than the Ultra, your Apple Watch Series 10 pretty much looks very similar to the first Apple Watch, right?

I mean, there's not any huge changes to it.

Now I know that they've slimmed things up and they've curved it up a little bit and you know, they've made some smaller changes and I like that because my first Apple Watch band still works on my current Apple Watches today.

So I like the fact that it hasn't been changed, but it will 2025, what we see in maybe a Series 11, could there be a bigger change of some kind, maybe a round one?

I mean, I don't know what they would do from that, but I feel like by this time, maybe we'll see something that's a little bit of a difference than what we've seen over the last 10 years. - My prediction is it won't be a big year for the Apple Watch. - Oh, okay. - When I did my review. - Well, that's disappointing. - When I did my review of the Apple Watch Series 10, I sort of took in the beginning of the review, a look over history of what the Apple Watch has done.

And you're right, I understand your point. - You did, that's right. - That the modern Apple Watch 10, and if you had an original Apple Watch, they're very similar in some respects.

Having said that, they did do a big redesign for the Apple Watch 4, and then they did another redesign for the Apple Watch 7. - That's true. - And then the Apple Watch 10 this year was a little different again, because it's the thinnest Apple Watch ever.

Plus it actually has a bigger screen, or a bigger display, you can show more on it.

And if you see, I had this picture that I took from the Apple website when I did my review a couple of months ago of the Apple Watch 10, that on the left side, one side it shows the original Apple Watch screen, and on the other side it shows the Apple Watch.

And when you look at them together, from that standpoint, you're like, "Oh my goodness, it's so much bigger."

So the Apple Watch does get better over time.

It just happens so slowly that you almost don't notice it.

It's like the frog in boiling water analogy or whatever.

But having said that, because Apple historically has changed the design every couple of iterations, I do think that Apple will come out with a Series 11 this year.

People love to buy Apple Watches, and you wanna have the quote unquote new model for the holidays and stuff.

So I do think that there will be a Series 11, but I expect that it will look exactly like the Series 10. - Okay, all right. - The one thing that I'm sure they would love to do is have more sensors, because again, like we just talked about with the AirPods, those health things and stuff like that.

Apple knows that health is a big reason for the Apple Watch.

People use it for working out, they use it for notifications, they use it for health.

And so if they can come up with a new sensor, I think that they'll do it.

The one that has been sort of a holy grail for Apple for years, and it's sort of an open secret, is to have a blood glucose monitor, which is so important for people that have diabetes.

But for everybody, you could, I'm not a doctor, but my understanding is that if you monitor someone's blood glucose level, it tells you some significant things about them.

And that in connection with other features like body temperature and blood flow.

That now again, is that gonna come out in 2025?

I don't think so.

I mean, I'm sure Apple's working on it.

I think they've even admitted to as such.

But that's gonna probably be the next big thing, but that might be still a few years away.

So we do know that that is on the horizon.

I mean, as a very minor goal, and this is not really something new in terms of hardware, but it annoys me that Apple had watches that had the blood oxygen sensor in it.

And then because of the lawsuit against Maximo, they had to turn it off.

And so even the newest watch, my Series 10 that's on my wrist right now, it has a blood oxygen sensor on it.

And if I had purchased it in Canada, I could use it.

But because I bought it here in the States, it's turned off.

So I just hope that they settle that lawsuit or get it resolved.

And somehow they can turn on that feature.

I cannot wait to open up my computer one morning and say, "Hey, guess what?

Next time you update your Apple watch, you're gonna have this turned on."

It's not even gonna use the feature that much.

I know some people do.

It's just, it bothers me that the feature is there that I can't use.

So I want that to be fixed.

That's my wishlist for the Apple watch in 2025, is turn that thing back on. - Okay.

That's fair.

That's fair.

I like that for like, I guess the normal series of watches, but my wishlist, and I almost could go for a prediction on this, is on the Ultra line, right?

You know, I was so disappointed.

I was so disappointed this year that we didn't get an Ultra 3.

So I still have an Ultra 1, which mine's gonna be almost three years old now.

I still love it.

It still is fantastic for what it does.

The battery life is number one, you know, for me.

But I just, I love, I mean, I have hit this on a wall and rocks so often, and it just continues to keep on ticking, if, as it were.

But I just, I love that.

I want a new version of the Ultra.

And all they did this year was just put a new color on it, which is cool.

I like the color.

The black is really nice, but it's like, there's not enough between the one and the two of the Ultra series for me to upgrade.

And if they had done an Ultra 3 this year, Jeff, I would have been all over it.

You know what?

I'm gonna take that thickness back.

I'd like, make it thicker.

I don't know if I like the squareness of the Apple Ultras as they are right now, because the one and the two are exactly the same.

And just, I don't mind it being thicker, because I like it for the battery aspect of it.

I just don't like the square harshness of it, I guess.

And that's what I like so much about your 10, for example, is that it's just a little bit more smooth.

So I don't know if I can go out on a prediction, if they're gonna do anything, you know, I mean, I feel like they almost took a pass this year.

They didn't do an Ultra 3.

They just did a new color for the two.

So I feel like in 2025, if they want to continue that Ultra aspect, and I see a lot of Ultras on a lot of arms, Jeff.

So I feel like Apple knows they need to do something in 2025 if they wanna continue that line.

And I like the fact that we have the option between the regular series and we have the Ultra series.

And yeah, so I don't know, that's a quasi prediction, I guess.

But I feel like if they don't do something in 2025, it's really gonna kind of die on the vine there.

I mean, I feel like Apple needs to commit to that if that's something they're going to.

And I think a lot of science points to that from the health aspects and everything.

So anyway, just my thoughts, I wanted to throw in on the Ultra line. - Yeah, as you know, a couple of months ago, I went back and forth.

I wore an Apple Watch Ultra for a few weeks and ended up returning it.

And although I'm comfortable that for me, the Series 10 was the better product, there was a lot about the Ultra that I liked.

I wasn't crazy about that boxy design and the fact that it was really thick.

On the other hand, I did love the battery life.

I liked the features.

I mean, even things that I wouldn't use very often, but like that emergency sort of alarm feature that if you're ever in trouble, whether you're in the middle of the woods or in the middle of somewhere, like that's a cool thing that I wish the Series 10 had.

I would love to see, I mean, the Apple Watch Ultra right now a lot of its premium features are geared towards outdoors adventure use, which is great.

I mean, that's a perfect use for it.

It's super rugged and stuff like that.

A lot of people wanted the Apple Watch Ultra to not just be the rugged outdoorsy one, but also one that would have like all the cool premium features.

And I don't know if Apple sees it the same way, but what will make, I mean, like you say, enough people wear them.

You see them on the streets, you see them on TV.

There's enough people wearing the Ultra that Apple has got to be considering what will be in an Ultra 3.

And I'm very intrigued, what would make it more Ultra?

Will it be more outdoorsy thing?

You know, they already have, you can climb mountains, you can go scuba diving.

You know, I don't know what would be next.

Or will it not be something for outdoor adventures, but instead be something else that you can, that they can just add it to make it really the best Apple Watch, such that people really do, you know, will continue to have tough decisions between do you get the regular top of the line one or the Ultra?

So I'm sure Apple has some really good ideas in mind and I can't wait to see it.

I think we, I really do predict we will see a new Ultra 3.

I think your wish will come true.

I think we'll see a new Ultra 3 this year.

And I think it will have some more features, but as for me to predict what there'll be, I don't know.

I can't wait to find out. - Well, you know, I just have to quickly tell you, a lot of the people, including myself that have the Ultra, we are not like climbing, you know, Mount Kilimanjaro necessarily.

And I almost see it, Jeff, and I don't know if Apple thought about this, but I almost see it as like, if people want, just like there are people that will buy the iPhone Pro because it's the Pro version, even though they don't need the Pro version so much, they just want to get the better version capabilities on there.

And I feel like a lot of people that I see with an Apple Watch Ultra, again, I'll even throw myself into that, it's not necessarily because I'm taking advantage of all of the fitness components, but I see it as like the Pro model.

And so I use it in that way.

I don't know if that sort of makes sense, but that's just what I'm thinking.

Like, I don't know if Apple would think along those lines to say there's an Apple Series regular and there's a Pro Series of the Apple Watch.

It doesn't sound like that that's where they were going with this, but anyway, just another thought on some of that.

Wow, that was fun, Jeff.

Thanks for taking- - I'm excited now.

Like I'm excited to 2025. - I know, I'm even more. - All these cool things that can come out, wow. - And now I know what to save my money for, I feel like, 'cause we've talked through so many things here on this, but anyway, this was fun.

And thanks everyone for listening and happy new year.

This is gonna be an exciting year to watch in 2025.

Jeff, always fun talking with you.

Not only will we talk with you next week, but we'll talk with you next year as well. - I love it. - Thanks. - Thanks, Brad.